[Quest]: Keto Diet

[Wakelock]

Key:diet:keto was rejected for StreetComplete due to popularity bias, would be nice to see it in SCEE instead.

streetcomplete#6673

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: Key:diet:keto
Question asked: Are keto-friendly products offered here?

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
• values: (yes; no; limited; only) 🤔 Any answer the user can give should have an equivalent tagging (SCEE quests may not be answerable in all cases, but please keep this rare)
• 🐿️ A survey is necessary (may require knowledge of the subject, though easy answering for everyone is preferred)
• 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
• 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)

Similar to diet:vegan

Ideas for implementation

Element selection:
areas and tagged nodes, similar to diet:vegan

Metadata needed:

Proposed UI:
https://private-user-images.githubusercontent.com/227344378/531219835-1d336d93-119e-4b2d-8c6a-ad0462596dd6.svg?jwt=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJnaXRodWIuY29tIiwiYXVkIjoicmF3LmdpdGh1YnVzZXJjb250ZW50LmNvbSIsImtleSI6ImtleTUiLCJleHAiOjE3NzI4OTc4MTIsIm5iZiI6MTc3Mjg5NzUxMiwicGF0aCI6Ii8yMjczNDQzNzgvNTMxMjE5ODM1LTFkMzM2ZDkzLTExOWUtNGIyZC04YzZhLWFkMDQ2MjU5NmRkNi5zdmc_WC1BbXotQWxnb3JpdGhtPUFXUzQtSE1BQy1TSEEyNTYmWC1BbXotQ3JlZGVudGlhbD1BS0lBVkNPRFlMU0E1M1BRSzRaQSUyRjIwMjYwMzA3JTJGdXMtZWFzdC0xJTJGczMlMkZhd3M0X3JlcXVlc3QmWC1BbXotRGF0ZT0yMDI2MDMwN1QxNTMxNTJaJlgtQW16LUV4cGlyZXM9MzAwJlgtQW16LVNpZ25hdHVyZT0xYWYxNTNlYTA5NTBmNjcyNzlhOWQwMTU5ZDE0NTdlODFjZTU4NjM3MjMwNDY2YmIyZTZjNjEyNGVhM2I3ZThjJlgtQW16LVNpZ25lZEhlYWRlcnM9aG9zdCJ9.U5Q71gUFSsz58A4hlXrL3EuwSeyAU-SJSeOkFAAWbM8

[mcliquid]

There is a template for quest requests. It would be kind of you and appreciated by all contributors here if you would use it.

[Wakelock]

OK, sorry.

[mnalis]

OK, sorry.

So @Wakelock do you intend to fill the template?

Easiest is probably to to click New issue, choose Quest suggestion and fill in information as shown in the template (we can them mark this as a duplicate of that new issue). Thanks in advance.

---

I should note that it is already possible to add diet:keto=* via SCEE (after enabling Expert mode there is Show/edit tags with autocompletion).

Quest might of course make it somewhat easier, but for that, we need information asked by the template, preferably by someone who uses that tag and knows what makes sense and what doesn't. By just guessing without having more information, it is possible that new quest would make collecting that information harder, not easier.
(e.g. asking Keto Quest on shop=supermarket would only spam user and waste time, as IMHO only possible answer in reality there is yes if I understand that tag correctly)

[Wakelock]

Alright, I filled the template.

[mnalis]

Alright, I filled the template.

Thanks, I've edited it just to fix the GitHub formatting.
Note that your "proposed UI" link still seems broken, though.

• 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose

I'd note that there are only 127 users worldwide, so "established" claim seems a little stretched...

• values: (yes; no; limited; only)

Hm, only value is not documented on its wiki? Either wiki should be updated by mappers of that tag, or we should stick to only documented values¹

Similar to diet:vegan

I should note here that wiki documentation seems to imply that (while keys look quite similar on the the first look), the meaning of their values is very different.

tag	=yes	=limited
diet:vegan	offers a decent amount of vegan products	offers very few vegan products
diet:keto	at least one keto-friendly food/supplement is offered	at least one is partially keto-friendly

IOW, in vegan it is about "quantity" of different offers, and in keto it is about different "quality" (i.e. difference between diet:keto=yes / diet:keto=limited is more like difference between diet:vegan=yes / diet:vegetarian=yes).

Also, diet:keto=yes has even less requirement then diet:vegan=limited²

The text of the question and the answers should reflect what tag represents, so with different meaning, they should be modified too.
Perhaps multiple longer answers would be clearest way to accomplish that, but that needs different quest type. E.g. something like "What kind of seating does this place have?" radio-buttons quest format, with following question / answers:

"What is availability of keto-friendly products here?"

• "There is at least one keto-friendly product offered" (==> tags yes)
• "No fully keto-friendly products, but there is at least one partially keto-friendly product offered" (==> tags limited)
• "There are no fully nor partially keto-friendly products here" (==> tags no)

Or do you @Wakelock have better suggestion (especially about the texts, if they could be phrased better)?

Element selection:
areas and tagged nodes, similar to diet:vegan

Uh, I'm not a user of diet:keto tag user, but from quick look at its wiki (and using common sense) the same element selection as for diet:vegan would seem quite wrong?

For example, diet:vegan quest is skipped on all elements having diet:vegetarian=no. Should diet:keto quest really be skipped if restaurant doesn't offer vegetarian meals? That sounds wrong to me. Also vegan Quest is asked on all kind of places where it would not seem to make sense to me as layman for keto (e.g. I've never heard of keto-friendly shop=pastry)

Looking at its wiki "suggested combinations" infobox, it would IMHO make more sense to me to only consider such documented/recommended combinations, i.e. amenity=restaurant or amenity=cafe and food and food != no .

Footnotes

1. there also seems to be only a single instance of only tagged worldwide according to taginfo ↩

2. only one vegan meal in restaurant would be tagged as diet:vegan=no, as you need at least few even for diet:vegan=limited (according to wiki documentation); while only one keto-friendly meal is already diet:keto=yes ↩

[Wakelock]

Note that your "proposed UI" link still seems broken, though.

You can find the icon here: streetcomplete#6673

I'd note that there are only 127 users worldwide, so "established" claim seems a little stretched...

Regardless of that, unlike plant-based diets, it's crucial for saving people's own lives — it's not some ethical or environmentally-cautious option, it's necessary for some people to survive. So I think it should be prioritized over plant-based diets, albeit it has much less usage.

Hm, only value is not documented on its wiki? Either wiki should be updated by mappers of that tag, or we should stick to only documented values

I think the only value should be added to SCEE because it's used for pretty much every other diet too.

Perhaps multiple longer answers would be clearest way to accomplish that, but that needs different quest type. E.g. something like "What kind of seating does this place have?" radio-buttons quest format, with following question / answers

That's a good idea. We have a link to the wiki, so it can also be the other way. Both designs are good.

For example, diet:vegan quest is skipped on all elements having diet:vegetarian=no. Should diet:keto quest really be skipped if restaurant doesn't offer vegetarian meals? That sounds wrong to me.

Of course not, I said similar, not the exact same. Code from diet:vegan can be re-used, but some of it should be deleted or altered so that it makes sense. For example, we can replace diet:vegetarian=no with diet:sugar_free=no.

Also vegan Quest is asked on all kind of places where it would not seem to make sense to me as layman for keto (e.g. I've never heard of keto-friendly shop=pastry)

I've also never heard of keto pastry shops, but there are keto bread and chocolate alternatives, making it possible. I think the tag should be used in most but maybe not all places, that are also possible to be vegan, but should also include butchers, pharmacies and nutrition supplement stores. Some supplements have corn fillers, which are not keto, meanwhile some butchers probably offer sweetened meat, which is also not keto.

[mnalis]

Regardless of that, unlike plant-based diets, it's crucial for saving people's own lives — it's not some ethical or environmentally-cautious option, it's necessary for some people to survive. So I think it should be prioritized over plant-based diets, albeit it has much less usage.

Oh, I am not doubting that it would be useful data.
I am just noting that for it to actually become useful to affected population, it needs at least two things:

1. there need to be enough OSM mappers interested in mapping that diet (and able to it, of course)

and

2. there needs to be support in popular OSM data consumers (e.g. mobile apps, renderers, routers etc.) that allows regular users to searching for (and/or display differently) such places.

Details

For (1) it seems that not much mappers are yet interested in mapping it (see taginfo), and just adding a quest in SCEE probably won't help with that issue particularly well (As all SCEE quests are disabled by default, one has to have particular interest to find that quest among the hundreds of others, and then enable that quest specifically, and additionally have enough interest afterwards to keep solving them).

And regarding (2), while OpenStreetBrowser (or Overpass Turbo and similar data filters) can be used to find diet:keto, that leaves something to be desired... Better data consumer support would help both usefulness and adoption.¹

But be it as it may, I personally am fine with including the quest...

I think the only value should be added to SCEE because it's used for pretty much every other diet too.

That sounds reasonable idea; but prerequisite is that someone (preferably someone who actually uses it, or at least had contacted mappers who use it) documents that value on the wiki. [update]: I see it has been documented in the meantime.

Of course not, I said similar, not the exact same.

Sure, that was just an example why I asked for more details.
The reason is because that the person who end up programming the quest might have a very little or even no idea about the usage of the tag and what makes sense or not for. But the person proposing the quest is usually a domain knowledge expert in the field, i.e. they know (or should know / find out) what the useful usage of that tag is, and what isn't.

So ideally the proponent would write elementFilter themselves (e.g. like this), but if that is too complicated, they (or other people noticing the quest suggestion with experience with that tag) still should explain in detail exactly where it should be asked - e.g. "it should be asked on all amenity=restaurant and those amenity=cafe which serve food, as well as all shop=nutrition_supplements")

For example, we can replace diet:vegetarian=no with diet:sugar_free=no.

That one makes sense to me, good find!

I've also never heard of keto pastry shops, but there are keto bread and chocolate alternatives, making it possible. I think the tag should be used in most but maybe not all places, that are also possible to be vegan, but should also include butchers, pharmacies and nutrition supplement stores. Some supplements have corn fillers, which are not keto, meanwhile some butchers probably offer sweetened meat, which is also not keto.

If one is to drive adoption of diet:keto=* tagging, I think it makes sense to be conservative initially. Note that in SCEE, any user can (in most quests) change the elementFilter themselves by clicking that gear icon right of the quest name, so if one e.g. feels like they want to tag diet:keto on all amenity=fuel which has shop, they can extend the quest themselves by adding or (amenity=fuel and shop=yes) to it, etc.

The reason is the "💤 No spam" quest guideline -- while it is not a hard rule, if the quest is going to have the same yes answer in 99.9% of the cases, majority of users (even ones who would otherwise contribute) would just turn the quest off. It is much preferable (as it would result in more usage of the tag) that the quest is by default asked on smaller (but more reasonable) set of amenities, and users who are extra interested in it and do not mind the spam extend the quest for themselves.

So I would suggest excluding things like supermarkets and butchers - while it is theoretically possible that some butcher somewhere have only sweetened meats and no raw meat at all, I would find such situation that extremely unlikely. Same with supermarkets (and even most convenience shops) - that it would have not even a single one product of unsweetened meat, fish, fruits, vegetables or dairy products is unimaginable (in my little corner of Europe at least), so they would always be diet:keto=yes, thus is does not make sense to ask this by default.

Footnotes

1. but of course that is a bit of Catch-22 there -- just like editor apps would like to see data consumer support for the tag, so do data consumers would also likely want to support only tag which is popular, which implies preexisting editor support 🥲 ↩

[Wakelock]

there need to be enough OSM mappers interested in mapping that diet (and able to it, of course)

There will be much more someday. There are many on the Keto diet, whether for being required by doctors, or for health benefits, but fewer of them edit OpenStreetMap nowadays.

there needs to be support in popular OSM data consumers (e.g. mobile apps, renderers, routers etc.) that allows regular users to searching for (and/or display differently) such places.

Doesn't OpenStreetBrowser count?

So ideally the proponent would write elementFilter themselves (e.g. like this), but if that is too complicated, they (or other people noticing the quest suggestion with experience with that tag) still should explain in detail exactly where it should be asked - e.g. "it should be asked on all amenity=restaurant and those amenity=cafe which serve food, as well as all shop=nutrition_supplements")

I think it should be simple enough for most people, one can practically reuse most vegan-possible places, and ask me if doubting. I think that there is enough spoon-fed info on the OSM Keto wiki.

The reason is the "💤 No spam" quest guideline -- while it is not a hard rule, if the quest is going to have the same yes answer in 99.9% of the cases, majority of users (even ones who would otherwise contribute) would just turn the quest off.

So I would suggest excluding things like supermarkets and butchers - while it is theoretically possible that some butcher somewhere have only sweetened meats and no raw meat at all, I would find such situation that extremely unlikely. Same with supermarkets (and even most convenience shops) - that it would have not even a single one product of unsweetened meat, fish, fruits, vegetables or dairy products is unimaginable (in my little corner of Europe at least), so they would always be diet:keto=yes, thus is does not make sense to ask this by default.

I completely agree, I can already imagine how quickly it would become repetitive, but we can configure on which places the Keto quest shows up — It's easier to remove things than add them back. As a benefit, people can find such places by searching for the diet:keto tag. That would still be nowhere as spammable as the "Changing Table", "Hairdresser's Customers" and "Is This Indoor" quests. Also, many butchers sell processed meat, (e.g., salami, sausages, etc.), which is typically sweetend much more often than you think. The WHO officially classified pre-processed meat as carcinogenic.