Condition-based medical

[otokonoko-dev]

Please feel free to discuss anything and ask for clarification.

[PurpleTranStar]

I think advanced combat hard-suits should be able to quick-diagnose you.Mostly only for the HEV suit reference, but nukies exist and need to be able to diagnose and heal quickly.

[RosySaturniidae]

possibly important points ive seen made in workgroup discussions but not mentioned in the document (not necessarily proposing you amend them, but just for context):

-while the damage numbers still exist internally and thus the base technical considerations are minimal, im under the impression that our current limb system under "shitmed" is not implemented well, which may be a limiting factor in the future

-this system should more clearly separate the existing medical roles (well. ok mostly just paramedic from MD, but also possibly virologists in the future), and will likely involve information/equipment balancing to that end (a paramedic might have a star trek-y medical scanner to quickly diagnose minor symptoms, but not have the equipment to diagnose diseases, poisons, or subtler internal damage)

-while the degree of treatment will vary depending on the situation, i think variation in the types of treatment available would be helpful. this already implies a substantial rework of how chemical medicines interact with the body, and it may be worth investigating other solutions and their accessibility

-some ways to mitigate damage/symptoms should exist for people outside of medical, on the off chance that the department fully refuses treatment (either due to antagonist activities or just. general chicanery)

-once a baseline is established, this may also extend to conditions/interactions unique to each species, in a way that doesn't feel tacked on (in the way so many of them are currently). this opens avenues for more unique species, which, while new species are not in particularly high demand, this may also fix issues with existing (and previous removed :godo:) species, balance wise

as stated in the document, precise balancing is not really a priority for discussion, so i leave these points in the abstract

[otokonoko-dev]

Thanks for the feedback! While not explicitly covered in the document i do have additional context regarding what you wrote.

-while the damage numbers still exist internally and thus the base technical considerations are minimal, im under the impression that our current limb system under "shitmed" is not implemented well, which may be a limiting factor in the future

You're correct. The current limb system from shitmed is not something we want in the long term. Supporting condition based medical will very likely require a replacement or significant rework. But that is out of scope for this proposal.

-this system should more clearly separate the existing medical roles (well. ok mostly just paramedic from MD, but also possibly virologists in the future), and will likely involve information/equipment balancing to that end (a paramedic might have a star trek-y medical scanner to quickly diagnose minor symptoms, but not have the equipment to diagnose diseases, poisons, or subtler internal damage)

Condition based medical creates more opportunities to differentiate roles. This can be better addressed once the core system exists however.

-while the degree of treatment will vary depending on the situation, i think variation in the types of treatment available would be helpful. this already implies a substantial rework of how chemical medicines interact with the body, and it may be worth investigating other solutions and their accessibility

-some ways to mitigate damage/symptoms should exist for people outside of medical, on the off chance that the department fully refuses treatment (either due to antagonist activities or just. general chicanery)

Bundling these two together.

This system focuses on how treatment is performed rather than how much. A minimal care vs maximal care model supporting different tiers of treatment like topicals, chemicals and surgery.

An example. If you have a bullet wound it may be temporarily stabilised with a tourniquet and painkillers, allowing the patient to function short term. But full resolution proper treatment (surgery, disinfection etc) is required. Similarly in emergency scenarios frontline stabilisation (CPR, bleeding control, pain management) is accessible outside of medical while permanent solutions remain within it.

The different tiers of care could also come into play with insurance and scrip later down the line. But the reworks of chemicals, procedures etc. will be handled in follow up documents.

[miosar]

I have 3 questions for this:
Would our current chem system be changed? I.E, salic acid treats brute damage. Would it mend broken bones and open wounds without surgery or would it act as a "minimal" temporary treatment?

Will the condition system be balanced around self sustainability? This is mainly based off of offmed concerns, where most antagonists and security officers often died because of conditions they could not treat in the field due to being considered a station wide threat and/or limited supplies ( such as heretic only having omnizine from the flask ritual and whatever they steal from medical )

Mostly concerned about you mentioning that permament solution are limited to medical. While I support this motion in the future of funkymed, it is important to remember that access to professional medical help is very often limited, even to a permament degree. A prisoner will be kept in the brig in cuffs, nukies are forced to remain on the move, heretics and syndies going loud are limited by TC or their abilities and medical itself is already often overwhelmed.

In short, this line:

- Players should not be able to fully diagnose or optimize their treatment without medical involvement.

Worries me, due to both the experience and ability of medical players (both new and old) to deal with station threats and them being (understandably so) not supposed to help known threats to both others and themselves (such as, again, heretics, loud syndies, nukies, and in the future revolting unions of any department outside of medical.

Oh, also, small question at the end: What will prevent players from just figuring out their damage using just simple logic? As in, "I got hit with a toolbox in the head, my vision is blurry, therefore I probably have a concussion." or "I got shot and have trouble breathing. I probably have a punctured lung."

Just adding this at the end since I forgot to before the edit:

**Taking Things Slow**: Medical care and recovery scale naturally with Funky Station’s long round lengths, discouraging reckless behavior and instant resets.

The issue with slowing down the rate of recovery is the nature of the medical department itself. While, for example, service, is a simple "choose your thing" department, where you either run by and grab something to eat and drink or sit down and talk with the barkeep depending on the state of the station - that is, if it is on fire and terrorists are shooting people, you understandably speed it up.

Therefore, if we forcibly lower the speed of treating people, especially during emergencies, the system will feel restrictive and clunky, especially, again, for roles that cannot afford to take things slow: Most antagonists and security officers.

To conclude this extra point, it is important to consider the balance of temporary and professional healing. People may stock up on meds even as a non-combat role to avoid going to medical, or, on the other hand, if we overtune it too much, those that aren't able to receive surgery and chems will just die, which depending on their role in the shift may cause it to lose all momentum and/or cause one side of a conflict to steamroll the other ( For example blood cult being able to heal all their injuries using blood pylons while security has to move back to medical and spend dozens of minutes laying on a bed waiting for med to patch them up )

[Teasq]

The issue with slowing down the rate of recovery is the nature of the medical department itself. While, for example, service, is a simple "choose your thing" department, where you either run by and grab something to eat and drink or sit down and talk with the barkeep depending on the state of the station - that is, if it is on fire and terrorists are shooting people, you understandably speed it up.

Therefore, if we forcibly lower the speed of treating people, especially during emergencies, the system will feel restrictive and clunky, especially, again, for roles that cannot afford to take things slow: Most antagonists and security officers.

The point of medical, in my opinion, is to not run perfectly during disaster situations. It should force you to prioritize and make difficult decisions as a medical doctor. You should never be allowed to treat everyone perfectly if terrorists are attacking the station.

Which brings me to my second point: medical is not just a vehicle for combat. The reason I like the condition-based system is because it forces you to address the trauma of combat sooner or later. You don't just fix 20 bullet holes with some chems and a bandage. You have to interact with the doctors, explain your symptoms, ROLEPLAY, or in disaster situations you have to take the short fix and deal with the mounting consequences later. This makes a much more immersive experience that allows doctors to play out their fantasy of... actually being a doctor that is treating patients.

Security officers should not be able to treat themselves in the field. Offset the conditions via drugs and medical equipment? Sure! But they should eventually be forced to get medical attention. I don't really see this affecting the balance of security vs big antags as security oftentimes already has the edge here, with their overwhelming firepower and having the entire medical staff behind their back (unless medical has been converted, which SHOULD be punishing.)

Dealing with patients as fast as possible to me does not make a good system, it makes a convenient one that is very dull to engage with.

[Terkala]

The one thing I notice as being suspiciously absent from this proposal: What does "crit" or "dead" look like under this system? How does it determine a player has gone into crit or died? Can you break every bone in a person's body and have them not die? How does it work when you take a type of damage that normally "would" break a bone, but the bone is already broken?

I know it's listed under open questions, but this is pretty core to even being able to start on something like this

[otokonoko-dev]

The one thing I notice as being suspiciously absent from this proposal: What does "crit" or "dead" look like under this system? How does it determine a player has gone into crit or died? Can you break every bone in a person's body and have them not die? How does it work when you take a type of damage that normally "would" break a bone, but the bone is already broken?

I know it's listed under open questions, but this is pretty core to even being able to start on something like this

Good feedback. I did have a vision on how death/crit works and I don't quite get how i missed adding it to the doc. I've updated the document to add a section about how i envision crit/death to be handled now though.

[mkanke-real]

This feels like a solid expansion on the medical direction doc correspond wrote laid out as a general overview for the individual damage groups to work off of. What will be the differentiation of diagnosis though. Will non-meds be limited to examine text and since numbers will be obscured what will the med scanner look like? Will it be more of a zomboid style paper doll where you can see all the external areas and maybe the body scanner can see the internals? An elaboration on that particular section would probably be good.